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Staying Ahead of the Game What exactly do you do to stay prepared in the PvP world? Rate Topic: -----

#21
User is offline   Teny 

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Posted Oct 03, 2012 - 7:04 PM

View PostJanshi, on Oct 03, 2012 - 6:39 PM, said:

Yeah daybreeze, this is issue that concerns me a lot too. Atm when I pulling a whole dungeon with my bm for farming purpose my game is lagging like hell.

6 vs 6 is like the dredgion in Aion (ncsoft game :D)


I like the idea kinda. They might add in smaller modes, although the game is very well optimized so unless your comp is very outdated you shouldn't be dealing with super nexus lag.
I don't have time for this... Ò_____Ó.
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#22
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Posted Oct 04, 2012 - 1:04 PM

View PostKogane, on Sep 29, 2012 - 9:54 AM, said:

Okay! I'll give it a try.
.I'll edit this post with my answers after I've had a good look at the video.



taking way too long. the answers are pretty obvious in the vid. it can't possibly be that difficult. :omg:
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#23
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Posted Oct 04, 2012 - 1:07 PM

View PostDayBreeze, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:04 PM, said:

taking way too long. the answers are pretty obvious in the vid. it can't possibly be that difficult. :omg:


He might have forgotten about it, which is a more likely scenario.
I don't have time for this... Ò_____Ó.
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#24
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Posted Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM

View PostDayBreeze, on Sep 29, 2012 - 3:40 AM, said:

they pretty much covered it ^

when they say study your own class, its about muscle memory. as example, i played a FPS game, it features a decent close range combat system, you could use attacks to knock down your opponent which makes them vulnerable. i decided to specialize in the close range combat part. within 1 month of playing my mind was so trained into the game as soon as my eyes saw my character get knocked down my finger is already on the button that lets me quickly escape that bad situation. the long practise is for muscle memory.

i can tell you now before i fight a new class i am already studying it. after the fight is over i am still studying it. i play my opponent's class to know their capabilities. most of my battle is already done before it even starts, just my brain, pencil, paper thinking about HOW.

watch this vid, it is from CBT3 so somewhat outdated, lots of changes have been made to skills since then, nonetheless:



having played KFM and FM, i know how to how to defeat both classes with the other class. you should use this video as practise, you try to list everything the KFM and FM is doing RIGHT and WRONG . and don't use this vid to conclude FMs are shitty and KFM is OP. i can tell you right now the KFM was playing smart, and the FM, not.

i'll tell you the answers in about 2 days.


Okay I finally had a good look at the video like I had wanted to. I'm still watching it and such and writing down things I notice---but I wanted to see how I was doing so far since really most everything I saw looked some of the same stuff. Though near the end the FM did show signs of learning a little bit---like when he kept running while using Chi Leech and push.

I'll give you the notes I wrote down as I watched:


The FM did not maintain a managable distance away from the KFM: In the first fight the FM actually ran toward the KFM instead of forcing them to come after them. In doing so he set himself up to be hit by the flame palm bounce that stunned him the first time around, and again when he didn't focus on getting away instead of attacking after doing his back dash.

These two mistakes allowed him to get stunned twice and stuffer pretty bad damage with the distance leap attack the KFM was doing. Didn't help that every time the KFM was moving he was either moving closer or just standing there when he shouldn't be.

-The only real smart thing that the FM thought to do was to try and freeze the KFM to save himself...though perhaps he could have tried to put distance between himself and her before he did that so he wouldn't have gotten kicked. Even better he had plenty of chi to do Chi Leech so he could have just done that and flung her backward a decent way while also backing up some himself.

- He...oddly enough allowed himself to be 'kited' LOL. The KFM actually kited him. Since she knew he was going to try and move in close for whatever reason she basically controlled his movement by that assumption. Because whenever she moved backward he came closer...which was why she was able to often land her distance leap skills for decent combos. Not to mention along with this she was able to do skills that'd normally be too slow in PvP due to their 'charge time' for example the double fisted punch. It was a good way to conserve and build chi as a tactic.

This guy doesn't seem very good at chi bouncing btw. Though again he allows himself to get too close for his reaction time it seem. Either that or he just thinks he can tank it.

...Was he trying to push the KFM off a cliff? At first when I saw that I thought she hit an invisible wall which would have been hilarious. But what actually happened--after I saw the same thing happen again...The KFM used a jump attack since she was in the air to react to when she was released. At least that's what it looked like---as I'm fairly certain the FM didn't just do the attack that allows him to smash enemies into the ground (Which in his case should only be done as a finisher if he's certain it'll kill her.) In general it's starting to look like he uses Chi Leech at very bad times when he thinks to do so. Like when he used the move that allows him to quickly recover from down status---he should have used breakaway directly after if he could have to escape. Maybe even frozen her and broke away or vice versa. I'm not certain of the range for the ice dragon thing.


The KFM was doing pretty good though. cutting the distance. Trying to stunlock with combos that would mostly stun him, flinch, or put him on the ground in some manner so that he couldn't get away. Like the air attacks she was doing. She tried to get as much damage on him as she could before he got away and then put him in positions where he'd have to do something extra just to get out. Generally her tactic was most likely to keep him from having a chance to push her back---while so forcing opts for combos to occur by focusing mostly on only staying close enough to make bounce attacks difficult to react to.

When it seemed finally bouncing attacks wasn't going to get her a stun status on the FM I ASSUME she started using it as a distraction so that when she built up enough chi from countering she could rush in at him and knock him down with a kick.


Sorry for taking so long. xD

View PostTeny, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:07 PM, said:

He might have forgotten about it, which is a more likely scenario.


Nah I didn't forget. > > I just didn't have the time to look at it like I wanted to when I wanted to.

This post has been edited by Kogane: Oct 04, 2012 - 1:47 PM

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#25
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Posted Oct 04, 2012 - 3:20 PM

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:

The FM did not maintain a managable distance away from the KFM: In the first fight the FM actually ran toward the KFM instead of forcing them to come after them. In doing so he set himself up to be hit by the flame palm bounce that stunned him the first time around, and again when he didn't focus on getting away instead of attacking after doing his back dash.

These two mistakes allowed him to get stunned twice and stuffer pretty bad damage with the distance leap attack the KFM was doing. Didn't help that every time the KFM was moving he was either moving closer or just standing there when he shouldn't be.


actually the KFM did the correct thing, and the FM was wrong. KFM fight best by reacting, the FM's best chance is to get the KFM to chase her, not stand and react. thus it works to the KFM's advantage to keep a large distance between himself and the long range user. keeping a large distance serves 2 purposes against amateurs, and one purpose against experienced fighters.

take this example: if you were going to be shot at by an archer would you rather have the archer shoot at you from 6 meters away, or 100 meters away?. assuming the arrow travels at the same speed in both situations, its common sense your best chance of surviving is from 100 meters away. more time to see the arrow coming, time to think and react, time to catch the arrow. the FM by keeping max shooting distance from the KFM gave him this free counter advantage, and handicapped himself.

the other advantage from keeping a large distance, only happens because in the OBT and released version of B&S, KFMs lose the counter stun, and they need to spend skill points to get back their counter stun. so a lower level KFM nowadays need to adapt, keeping a large distance helps to keep long range users relaxed and let their guard down. if they are off guard, they stop moving/fighting properly, makes it easier to jump in, stun or trip, and kill. so yea the 2nd advantage is a mind game advantage...... only works against less experienced players.

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:


-The only real smart thing that the FM thought to do was to try and freeze the KFM to save himself...though perhaps he could have tried to put distance between himself and her before he did that so he wouldn't have gotten kicked. Even better he had plenty of chi to do Chi Leech so he could have just done that and flung her backward a decent way while also backing up some himself.


the FM used the ice skills wrong, the best way to use the ice skills is to keep them frozen all the time, call it permafrost style :P
remember i said up there the best chance to kill a KFM is not to let him relax and react, but to force him to chase you. KFMs have 3 skills that let them close a gap fast.
-first one, i call pounce, Tab skill, can only be used if the enemy is farther than .... 10 meters i think.
-second one is elbow to stomach, can be used from right in front of the enemy or very far away.
-third one is a 4 hit skill, beautiful, extends stun/trip time so the best time to use it is when you successfully stun or trip. in CBT3 this skill only shows up after you stun/trip anyway. in later versions its a skill that shows up on your skill bar all the time.

okay, pounce, FMs can take this option away simply by being closer. elbow skill, FMs can take this skill away by ICE palm or jumping, ice dragon merely stops them from moving, ice palm slows movement and disables gap closing skills, and elbow only works if your opponent is on land. if the FM played well, he would tempt the KFM to chase, if the KFM chases, the FM has total control, permafrost would leave him totally humiliated.

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:

- He...oddly enough allowed himself to be 'kited' LOL. The KFM actually kited him. Since she knew he was going to try and move in close for whatever reason she basically controlled his movement by that assumption. Because whenever she moved backward he came closer...which was why she was able to often land her distance leap skills for decent combos. Not to mention along with this she was able to do skills that'd normally be too slow in PvP due to their 'charge time' for example the double fisted punch. It was a good way to conserve and build chi as a tactic.

This guy doesn't seem very good at chi bouncing btw. Though again he allows himself to get too close for his reaction time it seem. Either that or he just thinks he can tank it.


yes. KFM are close range fighters, but they deal with casters the best way by kiting lol. irony. double fist punch is counter. all other punches are just with one fist. and you can see KFMs can return projectiles, and FMs can cancel returned projectiles. the ONLY advantage to playing from such a large distance is so you can see and cancel the returned projectile. even then, the FM didn't cancel it all well.

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:


...Was he trying to push the KFM off a cliff? At first when I saw that I thought she hit an invisible wall which would have been hilarious. But what actually happened--after I saw the same thing happen again...The KFM used a jump attack since she was in the air to react to when she was released. At least that's what it looked like---as I'm fairly certain the FM didn't just do the attack that allows him to smash enemies into the ground (Which in his case should only be done as a finisher if he's certain it'll kill her.)


dunno what u talking about. be more specific. T_T

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:

In general it's starting to look like he uses Chi Leech at very bad times when he thinks to do so. Like when he used the move that allows him to quickly recover from down status---he should have used breakaway directly after if he could have to escape. Maybe even frozen her and broke away or vice versa. I'm not certain of the range for the ice dragon thing.


yes. the FM used grip and chi blast really poorly. you might have noticed every time a fireball hits, a little fire icon with a number shows up next to the target. chi blast does very little damage if that number is small, and max damage if he recently hit 5 fireballs to the target. this means to do max damage fast, you need to shoot 5 fireballs, and follow it up with chi blast. force grip allows you to fire your chi blast at your target without any chance for them to counter (depends on how you time the skills). chi blast, fire dragon, ice dragon all have the same range, it reaches up to mid range, which is another reason FM should not be playing long range like an amateur. you also saw the FM grip and try to roast the KFM. thats stupid. roast should be used with ice.

View PostKogane, on Oct 04, 2012 - 1:49 PM, said:


The KFM was doing pretty good though. cutting the distance. Trying to stunlock with combos that would mostly stun him, flinch, or put him on the ground in some manner so that he couldn't get away. Like the air attacks she was doing. She tried to get as much damage on him as she could before he got away and then put him in positions where he'd have to do something extra just to get out. Generally her tactic was most likely to keep him from having a chance to push her back---while so forcing opts for combos to occur by focusing mostly on only staying close enough to make bounce attacks difficult to react to.

When it seemed finally bouncing attacks wasn't going to get her a stun status on the FM I ASSUME she started using it as a distraction so that when she built up enough chi from countering she could rush in at him and knock him down with a kick.
Sorry for taking so long. xD



well..... yea. i said it before, FM are vulnerable at close range, are at their WEAKEST at long range, and have best power and control at mid range. 6 to 8 meters is the sweetspot. in these battles i didn't have to get so serious. didn't have to keep jumping to disable elbow, the player was just too... incompetent

this is my tactics applied, on a free to play account on official you cannot go past level 15. you can see everything i talked about. playing with my tactics perfectly wasnt really needed. watch the way i use the skills. ice palm -> disable elbow, ice dragon -> roast, grip -> blast. i look forward to fighting a smarter player where i need to use these tactics completely.

you can search my channel for more of the KFM vs FM vids. i kept up a 75% victory rate against all FMs i fought as a KFM, and a 100% victory rate vice versa.






This post has been edited by DayBreeze: Oct 04, 2012 - 3:30 PM

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#26
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Posted Oct 04, 2012 - 3:42 PM

View PostDayBreeze, on Oct 04, 2012 - 3:20 PM, said:

actually the KFM did the correct thing, and the FM was wrong. KFM fight best by reacting, the FM's best chance is to get the KFM to chase her, not stand and react. thus it works to the KFM's advantage to keep a large distance between himself and the long range user. keeping a large distance serves 2 purposes against amateurs, and one purpose against experienced fighters.

take this example: if you were going to be shot at by an archer would you rather have the archer shoot at you from 6 meters away, or 100 meters away?. assuming the arrow travels at the same speed in both situations, its common sense your best chance of surviving is from 100 meters away. more time to see the arrow coming, time to think and react, time to catch the arrow. the FM by keeping max shooting distance from the KFM gave him this free counter advantage, and handicapped himself.


The only issue I had with your response is that I DID state the FM was wrong and the KFM was right from the start. Though I can see what confused you from what I was writing as I was referring to the character gender present in the videos. I'll color the response based on the gender I saw in the videos so you can see what I meant. Lol

Other than that small unimportant detail I feel like I learned something from your reply and my own observations---Thanks for giving me the chance to have a look. n n

" The FM did not maintain a managable distance away from the KFM: In the first fight the FM actually ran toward the KFM instead of forcing them to come after them. In doing so he set himself up to be hit by the flame palm bounce that stunned him the first time around, and again when he didn't focus on getting away instead of attacking after doing his back dash.

These two mistakes allowed him to get stunned twice and stuffer pretty bad damage with the distance leap attack the KFM was doing. Didn't help that every time the KFM was moving he was either moving closer or just standing there when he shouldn't be."

It should be easier to see what I meant when I said that. xD Though again this isn't all that important so much as making sure you understood what I wrote.
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#27
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Posted Oct 05, 2012 - 1:33 AM

haha at least you know how you typed your message.
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#28
User is offline   Teny 

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Posted Oct 05, 2012 - 10:59 AM

Yes, what a message ?_?

I appreciate the enthusiasm for trying to learn more about the game, KFMs are great :)
I don't have time for this... Ò_____Ó.
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#29
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Posted Oct 06, 2012 - 4:01 AM

View PostTeny, on Oct 05, 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Yes, what a message ?_?

I appreciate the enthusiasm for trying to learn more about the game, KFMs are great :)


Of course~. Please do continue to give PvP advice here if you think of any more to share that has not already been provided. I feel learning early is what provides a constant source of enjoyment in games like this...and I want to enjoy every aspect of the game.
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#30
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Posted Oct 08, 2012 - 2:48 AM

Pretty interesting topic you've brought up, but I highly doubt those premium players that spend so many years developing would openly share their "route's to success".
I've got myself a pretty solid set of "training" procedures too, which have only one weak spot = taking really a lot of time.

But I can't see the point of making such stuff public, it would only make your opponents stronger or raise the avarage PvP skill level.
You'll simply end up being forced to come up with something again.
*Made me feel bit nostalgic of RO SHR's*

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#31
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Posted Oct 08, 2012 - 11:03 AM

When it comes to learning anything first hand, mistakes are what will enable you to grow, so long as you can learn from them. A simple mantra that many people KNOW but never actually DO is try, try and try again. The old saying of not giving up is exactly what you'll need to have if you want to succeed in PvP (and in anything, generally).

As DayBreeze shows, taking a loss and accepting it, analysing what went wrong and improving from there is how you escalate yourself above those who complain and moan about broken mechanics and OP classes.

In the mean time, keep yourself in practice, play a game that has an emphasis on PVP gameplay. League of Legends is great for DOTA, and Dragon Nest has amazing combat for PVP.

Good luck!

Hard work beats talent, when talent fails to work hard.

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#32
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Posted Oct 09, 2012 - 10:58 PM

Lets have more video analysis! We've covered FM vs. KFM,
Post some videos later.
The next one on the list should be one of these

KFM vs. BM
KFM vs. ASN
KFM vs. DS
KFM vs. SMN
KFM vs. KFM
DS vs BM
DS vs ASN
DS vs FM
DS vs SMN
DS vs. DS
FM vs ASN
FM vs BM
FM vs SMN
FM vs FM
BM vs ASN
BM vs SMN
BM vs. BM
ASN vs SMN
ASN vs ASN
SMN vs SMN
I don't know anything about online blogging or any other kind of stuff that happens on the net

But I do know one thing:
How to Play Video Games.
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Posted Oct 10, 2012 - 1:10 AM

View PostChibitiza, on Oct 09, 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Lets have more video analysis! We've covered FM vs. KFM,
Post some videos later.
The next one on the list should be one of these

KFM vs. BM
KFM vs. ASN
KFM vs. DS
KFM vs. SMN
KFM vs. KFM
DS vs BM
DS vs ASN
DS vs FM
DS vs SMN
DS vs. DS
FM vs ASN
FM vs BM
FM vs SMN
FM vs FM
BM vs ASN
BM vs SMN
BM vs. BM
ASN vs SMN
ASN vs ASN
SMN vs SMN


:O

i don't like to reward the lazy :O
i like to encourage critical and smart thinking. the first few bits of advice from players in this thread is exactly that..... KFM vs FM is all you will get out from me.
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Posted Oct 10, 2012 - 9:55 AM

View PostDayBreeze, on Oct 10, 2012 - 1:10 AM, said:

:O

i don't like to reward the lazy :O
i like to encourage critical and smart thinking. the first few bits of advice from players in this thread is exactly that..... KFM vs FM is all you will get out from me.


Besides you can probably find more of this stuff on youtube anyway. > _> I've already watched quite a few before this thread had even been created. lol

A person truly interested won't be lazy.
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Posted Oct 10, 2012 - 12:11 PM

View PostChibitiza, on Oct 09, 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Lets have more video analysis! We've covered FM vs. KFM,
Post some videos later.
The next one on the list should be one of these

KFM vs. BM
KFM vs. ASN
KFM vs. DS
KFM vs. SMN
KFM vs. KFM
DS vs BM
DS vs ASN
DS vs FM
DS vs SMN
DS vs. DS
FM vs ASN
FM vs BM
FM vs SMN
FM vs FM
BM vs ASN
BM vs SMN
BM vs. BM
ASN vs SMN
ASN vs ASN
SMN vs SMN



View PostDayBreeze, on Oct 10, 2012 - 1:10 AM, said:

:O

i don't like to reward the lazy :O
i like to encourage critical and smart thinking. the first few bits of advice from players in this thread is exactly that..... KFM vs FM is all you will get out from me.


(-__-)

That post just started a fire in me which is making me study this thing like it was an actual serious college course. I'm now taking lots of notes on it.
I don't know anything about online blogging or any other kind of stuff that happens on the net

But I do know one thing:
How to Play Video Games.
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Posted Oct 10, 2012 - 12:24 PM

View PostChibitiza, on Oct 10, 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

(-__-)

That post just started a fire in me which is making me study this thing like it was an actual serious college course. I'm now taking lots of notes on it.


GO! young one. A WHOLE NEW WORLD AWAITS!
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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 1:45 AM

View PostJanshi, on Oct 03, 2012 - 6:39 PM, said:

Yeah daybreeze, this is issue that concerns me a lot too. Atm when I pulling a whole dungeon with my bm for farming purpose my game is lagging like hell.

6 vs 6 is like the dredgion in Aion (ncsoft game :D)


Aion ? I'm still effin' playing Aion.
The PvP system has turned that game into zerg vs zerg. NO SKILL REQUIRED, no honor in battles.
My question for the Aion pvp like pushers is: Do you really want to see that in BnS ?
Annuit coeptis.
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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 11:45 AM

View PostHowlingWolf, on Dec 03, 2012 - 1:45 AM, said:

Aion ? I'm still effin' playing Aion.
The PvP system has turned that game into zerg vs zerg. NO SKILL REQUIRED, no honor in battles.
My question for the Aion pvp like pushers is: Do you really want to see that in BnS ?

No, no i do not want to see pvp currency loss tyvm.

I also don't want to see +/-10% damage done gear, but maybe that's just me.
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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 12:21 PM

View PostHowlingWolf, on Dec 03, 2012 - 1:45 AM, said:

Aion ? I'm still effin' playing Aion.
The PvP system has turned that game into zerg vs zerg. NO SKILL REQUIRED, no honor in battles.
My question for the Aion pvp like pushers is: Do you really want to see that in BnS ?


I was talking about the dredgion, that I want to see somekind of 6vs6 Arena in BnS, you quote me and than you babble something about the current Aion (which is crap and at no time I was refering to the current Aion).

This post has been edited by Ghastly: Mar 30, 2013 - 9:58 AM
Reason for edit: Offensive language

Server:飞龙逐日

Main: Janish - lvl 45 Forcemaster (red faction) - Guild: Villains

Server: 태산북두
Main: Janish lvl 50 Forcemaster (red faction)
Alt1: Janshiii lvl 45 Assassin (blue faction)
Alt2: Janshi lvl 45 Blademaster (red faction)
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User is offline   kennywu54 

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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 9:19 PM

Posters above have good tips. Especially about learning your opponent's skills and tendencies. Me, well I always keep a spare weapon with PvP gems along with defense focused/oriented rings, earrings, and a necklace in my inventory. Whenever I do PvP dailies and I have a chance to be jumped or for duels, I where the items. Another thing I do is this: After completing an endgame dungeon I always challenge the party members to a 1vs1 duel (in the end boss room so there are no distractors. Usually it's a best of three match and most of the time I learn something new about the opponent's class. Practice makes perfect (or close to it).
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