[Zenek]

Vile Samael, on Jan 14, 2013 - 8:37 AM, said:

Dude I've seen you call like every MMO a frickin theme park and it's a tad annoying. Quit talking like you've got some sort of impeccable taste in MMOs. As for being able to trade cash shop items in-game, there is no reason why they shouldn't let us do that. There's no disadvantage there for anyone.

Anything what I said was not based on taste. That is simple fact what for we going to pay - limited content. So why we should pay unlimited fee?
I think this topic is about argument our view on it - so what is annoying for you?

So what is spend 1000$ on things in cash shop for trade it for in game gold... - is it not buy advantage?

[Vile Samael]

Zenek, on Jan 14, 2013 - 8:59 AM, said:

Anything what I said was not based on taste. That is simple fact what for we going to pay - limited content. So why we should pay unlimited fee?
I think this topic is about argument our view on it - so what is annoying for you?

So what is spend 1000$ on things in cash shop for trade it for in game gold... - is it not buy advantage?

Pay to Win: Gaining an unfair advantage over others that cannot possibly be achieved other than through buying items from the cash shop. This does not include large amounts of gold because what you can buy with gold, so can EVERYONE ELSE. Sure you have a lot of it, but that gold has to come from SOMEWHERE. That somewhere being the non-paying people you sold the items to. Having tons of gold doesn't make you powerful.

Just the term "Theme Parks" is stupid, especially when you use it as a replacement term for MMOs. It just makes you look pretentious.

[Zenek]

Nice definition of P2W... but that is only your own. Pay too Win is term of any kind for of buying advantage over other players. Scale of it is not important.

How the term can be stupid? That is the most correctly term to call this game. Some of MMO are Theme Park, and Some Sandbox.

This post has been edited by Zenek: Jan 14, 2013 - 9:46 AM

[Zef]

Well while we're here yappin' NcSoft is "westernizing" the game.
Now is it just me who's got hard time beliving it's about translations?

I think it's much more about trailoring game to fit with the payment model they'll use, and how badly they'll abuse it.
Seeing as they're trying to make the most of cashshop in an already P2P game in korea, i'd worry much less about which model will be used and far more how it'll be abused.

Maybe i'm overreactive, but i got this feeling that when top dollar is put into female physics and all the clothes that are shiny and revealing, it's gonna cost a pretty penny;]

[Ghastly]

To claim that "sandbox" games deserve p2p status doesn't sit well with me Sandbox games give you the illusion that it's unlimited and full of possibilities. When in reality those games have the worst grind, the worst gameplays, and the worst update cycles you can think of.

The problem with sandbox games is that the devs take years to bring it to a point where it's playable. Those game start out barren, dull, and glitchy. It's years before you start having any fun in those games because it's a sandbox of grind which you need to build for months, to years.

In regular mmorpgs like B&S you're given a quality product. Now whether you get through it fast or not is another story. The gameplay in regular mmorpgs is top of the line, animations, core mechanics, design, art, community, and update cycles are consistent and progressive.

Regular mmorpgs grow and pile on content on a consistent basis where eventually the game world grows to a healthy size. The difference between this and a sandbox is that in a sandbox you're thrown it to grind. In regular mmorpgs (yes that's what I call "themepark" mmos) you're thrown in them to experience an rpg with others.

I would say a game that gives you quality content to enjoy (however fast you rush through it) deserves to be p2p more than a game which makes you grind and makes you pay every month to grind.

And lastly, B&S isn't p2win. Buying something from the shop and selling in game has been done in so many mmorpgs already, it's not p2win if those things can be gotten in the game as well.

[Vile Samael]

Ghastly, on Jan 14, 2013 - 9:53 AM, said:

To claim that "sandbox" games deserve p2p status doesn't sit well with me Sandbox games give you the illusion that it's unlimited and full of possibilities. When in reality those games have the worst grind, the worst gameplays, and the worst update cycles you can think of.

The problem with sandbox games is that the devs take years to bring it to a point where it's playable. Those game start out barren, dull, and glitchy. It's years before you start having any fun in those games because it's a sandbox of grind which you need to build for months, to years.

In regular mmorpgs like B&S you're given a quality product. Now whether you get through it fast or not is another story. The gameplay in regular mmorpgs is top of the line, animations, core mechanics, design, art, community, and update cycles are consistent and progressive.

Regular mmorpgs grow and pile on content on a consistent basis where eventually the game world grows to a healthy size. The difference between this and a sandbox is that in a sandbox you're thrown it to grind. In regular mmorpgs (yes that's what I call "themepark" mmos) you're thrown in them to experience an rpg with others.

I would say a game that gives you quality content to enjoy (however fast you rush through it) deserves to be p2p more than a game which makes you grind and makes you pay every month to grind.

And lastly, B&S isn't p2win. Buying something from the shop and selling in game has been done in so many mmorpgs already, it's not p2win if those things can be gotten in the game as well.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

bolded the EXTRA IMPORTANT PART but otherwise also a very good post.

[Zenek]

Illusion or not - it simply work and engages players much more. Sandbox simply do not have "drop player base" issues as Theme Park. That why Sandbox can survive easily much longer in P2P mode than Theme Park. And what is point of P2P game if it going to change model after 1-2 years?

Yes, game what quality content to enjoy deserve for P2P but only if it is able to guarante the players enjoy this content for longer than few years. What is simply impossible for Theme Park. Maybe if developers will make large update every month - are you belive in miracles?

Fact many MMORPG make fake P2P means nothing. That is still P2W. And fact how large part of community cannot only accept it, but also justify is only proof how effectivity they make brainwashing of customers.

[Shinaji]

Ghastly, on Jan 14, 2013 - 9:53 AM, said:

To claim that "sandbox" games deserve p2p status doesn't sit well with me Sandbox games give you the illusion that it's unlimited and full of possibilities. When in reality those games have the worst grind, the worst gameplays, and the worst update cycles you can think of.

The problem with sandbox games is that the devs take years to bring it to a point where it's playable. Those game start out barren, dull, and glitchy. It's years before you start having any fun in those games because it's a sandbox of grind which you need to build for months, to years.

In regular mmorpgs like B&S you're given a quality product. Now whether you get through it fast or not is another story. The gameplay in regular mmorpgs is top of the line, animations, core mechanics, design, art, community, and update cycles are consistent and progressive.

Regular mmorpgs grow and pile on content on a consistent basis where eventually the game world grows to a healthy size. The difference between this and a sandbox is that in a sandbox you're thrown it to grind. In regular mmorpgs (yes that's what I call "themepark" mmos) you're thrown in them to experience an rpg with others.

I would say a game that gives you quality content to enjoy (however fast you rush through it) deserves to be p2p more than a game which makes you grind and makes you pay every month to grind.

And lastly, B&S isn't p2win. Buying something from the shop and selling in game has been done in so many mmorpgs already, it's not p2win if those things can be gotten in the game as well.

Ghastly... you're talking about sandbox games back in the day when they were trying really hard to push the tech and trying new stuff so it didn't always work out right away.
Quite honestly it's because some of them pushed so hard to get certain systems why some newer games even have some of the features we all love.

Sandbox games are more about having everything in the game interact in such a way that even the players can push something and create fun new features that even the devs never came up with. It's not about not having a story (GTA is a sandbox to some degree) or not having thought out content.

I mean dang you just don't get anything about how sandbox games work, you don't have to like them but .. just dang. Never mind.

[Awake.]

There are amazing sandbox games and their are amazing theme park games. Some of the biggest hit's in gaming history have been sandbox games.

I don't really think payment method has anything to do with which 'type' of game it is. Payment method's usually revolve around the quality and amount of content within a game.

[Zef]

Awake., on Jan 14, 2013 - 1:04 PM, said:

Payment method's usually revolve around what the gaming company can get away with in face of players money wise.

Fixed that for you
Maplestory experience. It changes people. Before i played maplestory i was white...

[Awake.]

Zef, on Jan 14, 2013 - 2:35 PM, said:

Fixed that for you
Maplestory experience. It changes people. Before i played maplestory i was white...

Oh most certainly :)

Generally the higher quality of the game, the more people want to play it, and the more the companies can get away with slipping their fingers in our pockets.

[Zenek]

Awake., on Jan 14, 2013 - 2:40 PM, said:

Generally the higher quality of the game, the more people want to play it, and the more the companies can get away with slipping their fingers in our pockets.

Issue with Theme Park is not quality, but fun from it is very limited. Theme Parks like Tera (and I guess B&S also) keep very hight quality. Most ppl can make single instance few times - but it became boring after time, no important how hight quality it is. Only way to keep this players is give them new instance/BG or something to do. But because Theme Park limiting players from definition, companies are not able to give as much content as need for keep player base in game in longer period of time. And it cause player base drop and F2P for save the game (and last chance for milk the players). That why I start thing B2P is simply better for this kind of games, just for simply protect the game from F2P fate.

Sandboxes are a bit different. It does not need updates and new content. Because community itself is enought engine for keep game alive. Players itself make "content" for themself. In some cases that is building own houses, in other mass wars and server policy etc. But in general in sandbox game is simply impossible to say "I finished game" - there's always something to do.

[Kin-Pantsu88]

Zenek, on Jan 15, 2013 - 4:40 AM, said:

Sandboxes are a bit different. It does not need updates and new content. Because community itself is enought engine for keep game alive. Players itself make "content" for themself. In some cases that is building own houses, in other mass wars and server policy etc. But in general in sandbox game is simply impossible to say "I finished game" - there's always something to do.

Every game has his limitations, the sandbox you mention is something like Minecraft.

But this is Blade and Soul.
And the "Theme Park" thing, you call limited?
Every "Theme park" likes to expand, destroy old attractions and build new ones.
Same with games, and Blade and Soul is yet to appear in EU/NA. Korea is already running about a year, and they released a PvP patch recently. And still runs strong.
My gues is that there will be more to come for this game: new classes, new area's, new and challenging dungeons.

And there is still the Lore.
Like WoW, the first replicated the story from Warcraft 3, now there continuing the story there own way in World of Warcraft.
Who knows, the story in Blade and Soul makes a twist on the end. Or a new story opens because of a new island or so.

And at the moment the only expierence we got is the korean version, so who knows. When we finaly understand what they are saying, and ALL play it our self.
We could like it 10x 's better then it is now.

So don't judge the game as it is now in Korea, do that when the EU/NA version is here.

This post has been edited by Kin-Pantsu88: Jan 15, 2013 - 12:42 PM

[Nattsu]

In fear of repeating some of the longer posts in this thread i will make my humble statement short

I like the P2P model and here is why:

-It leaves us with the ppl that are really into it so we get dedicated gamers that care (they do after all pay for this )

-It gives the game a steady income so they can have main focus on developing game (patches,fixes and maitnance) instead of having to put more than enough recources into developing new "shit" to put in cash shops to make money on this....(which i fear would be the case if cash shop was only option to get ..well cash)

-15 $ is not much money, even for students. i am a student and if i dont put it into a game it would be wasted on some other crap.
i tried most of the b2p/f2p thathave been hyped lately and none of them...even Gw2 have impressed me community wise or tbh game itself.

I like to invest time and effort in the game and with a p2p model i have a chance (more likely than without monthly sub)to meed a fellow gamer with the same kind of spirit (i know they exist in the other mdels too but its like needle in a haystack)


That was my rant on Pay to Play

-Nattsu out

[Mickey]

Nattsu, on Jan 15, 2013 - 2:20 PM, said:

In fear of repeating some of the longer posts in this thread i will make my humble statement short

I like the P2P model and here is why:

-It leaves us with the ppl that are really into it so we get dedicated gamers that care (they do after all pay for this )

-It gives the game a steady income so they can have main focus on developing game (patches,fixes and maitnance) instead of having to put more than enough recources into developing new "shit" to put in cash shops to make money on this....(which i fear would be the case if cash shop was only option to get ..well cash)

-15 $ is not much money, even for students. i am a student and if i dont put it into a game it would be wasted on some other crap.
i tried most of the b2p/f2p thathave been hyped lately and none of them...even Gw2 have impressed me community wise or tbh game itself.

I like to invest time and effort in the game and with a p2p model i have a chance (more likely than without monthly sub)to meed a fellow gamer with the same kind of spirit (i know they exist in the other mdels too but its like needle in a haystack)


That was my rant on Pay to Play

-Nattsu out

Maybe $15 isn't much to you but it certainly is to a person like me with 5 siblings and a lot of other bills to pay. I rather just buy it once and come home one I'm stressed and just relax. So $15 is a lot of money no matter if you're a student or not. Don't get me wrong you guys with well paying jobs or jobs in general can do w/e you like with you money. In my situation and people like me ( I speak for people like me when I say) it's too much
An occasionally purchase from a cash every few months isn't much since there might be one if it's p2p.


Also, even if the game comes out to be p2p does that mean people who don't pay aren't dedicated. Look at many people on this forum who will probably not pay. They check day after day for updates on this game they're dedicated.
P.S. I apologize if there are any grammar mistakes right now I'm not in the mood to spellcheck

[Nattsu]

FireHead, on Jan 15, 2013 - 3:00 PM, said:

Maybe $15 isn't much to you but it certainly is to a person like me with 5 siblings and a lot of other bills to pay. I rather just buy it once and come home one I'm stressed and just relax. So $15 is a lot of money no matter if you're a student or not. Don't get me wrong you guys with well paying jobs or jobs in general can do w/e you like with you money. In my situation and people like me ( I speak for people like me when I say) it's too much
An occasionally purchase from a cash every few months isn't much since there might be one if it's p2p.


Also, even if the game comes out to be p2p does that mean people who don't pay aren't dedicated. Look at many people on this forum who will probably not pay. They check day after day for updates on this game they're dedicated.
P.S. I apologize if there are any grammar mistakes right now I'm not in the mood to spellcheck

As i said i am a student i have almost no money too :) also i have siblings too. It is still a matter of priority.

and also i said there are dedicated players everywhere, i just find it easier to find them in a p2p.
And by dedication i mean in game and since my self and a lot of others in here havent played yet i cant judge their dedication :)
There was a lot of "dedicated players" in many of the previous failed games before launch and still the community failed the game.
So there is a lot of good kind enthusiastic players in here (might even be all of them ) but lets leave the dedication part until we see what NCsoft brings to the west
Dont get offended by my opinions they are just my silly rants.

[Mickey]

Nattsu, on Jan 15, 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

As i said i am a student i have almost no money too :) also i have siblings too. It is still a matter of priority.

and also i said there are dedicated players everywhere, i just find it easier to find them in a p2p.
And by dedication i mean in game and since my self and a lot of others in here havent played yet i cant judge their dedication :)
There was a lot of "dedicated players" in many of the previous failed games before launch and still the community failed the game.
So there is a lot of good kind enthusiastic players in here (might even be all of them ) but lets leave the dedication part until we see what NCsoft brings to the west
Dont get offended by my opinions they are just my silly rants.

Oh no I don't get offended easily don't worry you have many great points but the only thing I disagree on is the p2p part . It would just be better for me is my opinions that b2p is best for people in my situation.

This post has been edited by FireHead: Jan 15, 2013 - 3:29 PM

[Ghastly]

Shinaji, on Jan 14, 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Ghastly... you're talking about sandbox games back in the day when they were trying really hard to push the tech and trying new stuff so it didn't always work out right away.
Quite honestly it's because some of them pushed so hard to get certain systems why some newer games even have some of the features we all love.

Sandbox games are more about having everything in the game interact in such a way that even the players can push something and create fun new features that even the devs never came up with. It's not about not having a story (GTA is a sandbox to some degree) or not having thought out content.

I mean dang you just don't get anything about how sandbox games work, you don't have to like them but .. just dang. Never mind.

But yet you didn't dispute any of the critical points in my post about paying them to grind. Sandbox games are about the grind, this can't be debated. Sandbox games have the most grind out of any type of mmorpg.

The history lesson was interesting though.

[Zenek]

Ghastly, on Jan 15, 2013 - 4:44 PM, said:

But yet you didn't dispute any of the critical points in my post about paying them to grind. Sandbox games are about the grind, this can't be debated. Sandbox games have the most grind out of any type of mmorpg.

The history lesson was interesting though.

What are you call grind?

For me grind is repeat same thing all the time. So what is Theme Park if not grind? Theme Parks are all about grind same instances. Repeat, repeat and repeat forever because of insane RNG in this. Usually the Theme Parks are the most grindy games in MMO industry.

Is it Sandbox grind? Yes but not necessary. Sandbox means freedom = you can do whatever you want. Economy is open = you are not forced to kill monser for earn money in game. You can use this economy if you are good merchant (EVE). You can steal it (ArcheAge) or kill one big world boss (Antharas, Valakas etc. in Lineage 2). The better is sandbox - less grind it have because of multiple ways for reach goal. Ofc grind mobs is most easy way, but not the best. Players can use them brain for find faster and more effective way - what is impossible in Theme Park because it limit everything, for example idiotic item bind.

So sorry, but you are badly wrong. Sandbox are not that grindy games. Good sandbox do not even need grind for survive - Minecraft. While Theme Parks need it for keep game in alive - because there is nothing else to do. And sandbox can offer alot more than just boost stats on own character.

This post has been edited by Zenek: Jan 16, 2013 - 6:56 AM

[Kin-Pantsu88]

Zenek, on Jan 16, 2013 - 6:48 AM, said:

What are you call grind?

For me grind is repeat same thing all the time. So what is Theme Park if not grind? Theme Parks are all about grind same instances. Repeat, repeat and repeat forever because of insane RNG in this. Usually the Theme Parks are the most grindy games in MMO industry.

Blablabla...

So sorry, but you are badly wrong. Sandbox are not that grindy games. Good sandbox do not even need grind for survive - Minecraft. While Theme Parks need it for keep game in alive - because there is nothing else to do. And sandbox can offer alot more than just boost stats on own character.

Grinding dungeons? Usualy the dungeon you "grind" are the ones at the endgame.
All the dungeon in the middle are once or maby twice becus it was fun, but you move on because the loot becomes less intresting.
And the final dungeons....are usualy not the easyest.

And let me repeat what I mentioned in my previous post (what you totaly ignored).

Blade and Soul is a "Theme park" in youre eyes, and limited.
Thats becus it is limited to a theme! Every game is limited! Including sanbox games.
If you want it totaly free, build youre own game.

But sorry Zenek, start a new topic or something about youre...

Sandbox


or themepark thingy.

This is: "Paramount Theme park" in South Korea.

Because we are all wailing from the subject of this topic.

What do we want:
P2P Pay to play (monthly subscription to play the game)
-or-
B2P Buy to play (pay once for the game, and continue to play)