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#1
User is offline   Mizuki 

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Posted Dec 26, 2012 - 9:04 PM

One thing I started noticing in TERA was people couldn't run certain dungeons because they weren't the right tier, one member asked if they could go to Fane of Kaprima I believe it was and the guild officer asked if they were Tier 9 or whatever and the player said no. He wasn't allowed to go , I don't recall if that was a high end dungeon but I think players should have options and not just get the door slammed in their face. It starts to create social circles that only certain people can be a part of, all those elite guilds start being formed because they're the only ones that can kill XO dragon. People join guilds and make friends to explore, they shouldn't have to worry about messing up or what not in the early stages, just enjoy yourself. There's always room for the difficult places where only certain people with a skill set can excel in which is fine but that should be separate, hardcore dungeons come to mind, heroic or whatever.

If a game does it right everyone should be able to experience all the mainstream content granted you can set aside certain places for those who really want to test themselves but don't include it for everyone. If someone can't participate with their friends because they aren't "good" enough they''ll stop playing, get more and more people in that mindset and you'll start seeing mass numbers leaving.

So bottom line for me is keep players from being alienated and you should see good results, I'm sure there are other aspects to consider though but I've seen this happen a lot

This post has been edited by Mizuki: Dec 26, 2012 - 9:06 PM

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#2
User is online   DayBreeze 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 2:49 AM

View PostMizuki, on Dec 26, 2012 - 9:04 PM, said:

One thing I started noticing in TERA was people couldn't run certain dungeons because they weren't the right tier, one member asked if they could go to Fane of Kaprima I believe it was and the guild officer asked if they were Tier 9 or whatever and the player said no. He wasn't allowed to go , I don't recall if that was a high end dungeon but I think players should have options and not just get the door slammed in their face. It starts to create social circles that only certain people can be a part of, all those elite guilds start being formed because they're the only ones that can kill XO dragon. People join guilds and make friends to explore, they shouldn't have to worry about messing up or what not in the early stages, just enjoy yourself. There's always room for the difficult places where only certain people with a skill set can excel in which is fine but that should be separate, hardcore dungeons come to mind, heroic or whatever.

If a game does it right everyone should be able to experience all the mainstream content granted you can set aside certain places for those who really want to test themselves but don't include it for everyone. If someone can't participate with their friends because they aren't "good" enough they''ll stop playing, get more and more people in that mindset and you'll start seeing mass numbers leaving.

So bottom line for me is keep players from being alienated and you should see good results, I'm sure there are other aspects to consider though but I've seen this happen a lot


your problem has to do with certain people and guilds. not the game itself.
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#3
User is offline   ElysiuM 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 2:59 AM

View PostDayBreeze, on Dec 27, 2012 - 2:49 AM, said:

your problem has to do with certain people and guilds. not the game itself.


You're summarizing the ladder that most PvE players climb in most MMOs. It happens in every game, from TERA, to WoW, and so on. You must first run less difficult dungeons to prepare you for the more difficult ones, although more gear might not be needed depending on your skill level, most guild or party leaders don't like to take that chance of trusting someone based on how high they think of themselves. Unfortunately, unless you group with friends, or people who do know how good you really are, this system is always the kind of paradigm that you will encounter in most MMOs.

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#4
User is online   DayBreeze 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 3:34 AM

gear level does not matter to me, intelligence does. i don't care if they can't smash a boss hard like a truck, i do care if they know the difference and responsibilities of tank and support, and which one they are. if they do not know anything about dungeons in B&S, no problem i don't mind sitting with them and explaining everything for 10 minutes. even if they have poor skills, as long as they are willing to listen and learn i don't mind doing dungeons with them. if they ignore friendly advice i will know who i am not taking to dungeons anymore.
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User is offline   Zenek 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostDayBreeze, on Dec 27, 2012 - 2:49 AM, said:

your problem has to do with certain people and guilds. not the game itself.


No, that is game problem. Effect of make games far too instances and item based.

View PostMizuki, on Dec 26, 2012 - 9:04 PM, said:

If a game does it right everyone should be able to experience all the mainstream content granted you can set aside certain places for those who really want to test themselves but don't include it for everyone. If someone can't participate with their friends because they aren't "good" enough they''ll stop playing, get more and more people in that mindset and you'll start seeing mass numbers leaving.


I do love how old Lineage2 fixed this issue - L2 rewarded travel in party very well, from very begining. It was possible to exp/farm solo but in group It much more profitable. In effect that was impossible to not have friends to do something.
And all take challenge was decided by different way. Not if you are good enough to be a part of raid, but if your raid party was good enough to win PvP with another raid party.
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User is offline   Tashigi 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 11:52 AM

It happens in all games that have "community" oriented content or "online" content in general.
Even WOW suffers from this; a game that heavily encourages people to chill/relax and simply have fun.

However, TERA in specific has some issues that further this issue.
That's the item level formulas in the game.
It forces people to enchant in order to reduce incoming damage from hard mode bosses and improve damage dealt, to counter "content walling" on some bosses that enrage unless killed within X amount of time.
For you to properly enchant your gear, you need to go through their russian roulette enchanting. Which as most people know, it's luck based.
So in the end, you only have a few lucky guys banding together. While the rest are left behind.
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#7
User is offline   Ghastly 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 12:00 PM

Answer: Guilds and friends
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#8
User is offline   BrandX 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 2:23 PM

View PostGhastly, on Dec 27, 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Answer: Guilds and friends


^This. Find a better guild.

Seeing this happen in PuG is one thing, but in a guild. Find a better guild. Maybe if they were BRAND NEW to the guild, and haven't run with them at all, but a bit of time being active in the guild, should have people willing to bring you along.

Also, if the guild is that afraid of failing a dungeon, they're a crappy guild to begin with. I'd rather lose and have fun than seem like work and win.
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User is offline   Nekuraba 

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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 3:11 PM

If the guild is telling you, you cant go because your not geared up enough~ then its not the guild for you, I play Tera in 5FPS (because my current cpu is ass) and my item lvls not god tier for FoK, but my guild asks me to run it with them all the time. I myself say no to them because I dont wanna mess up their run with my 5FPS~
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Posted Dec 27, 2012 - 5:46 PM

leave that guild, period if you think is a good reason, but have in mind that, if you are going to be a trully useless slot..then whats the point for you to join them, wont matter if you dont have the gear or lvl, as long you can be useful and helpful.
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Posted Dec 28, 2012 - 8:31 AM

i used to play guildless on lots of MMO's i reached the conclusion that i dont quite need them ... of course this helped me beccome more better by simply facing all the dungeons by myself i didnt need a group cuz, after a while of power grinding and few ingame uisnis whit other players i recievd some good items and i was able to du alone some dongeons some players couldnt done them in a team of 6 persons
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#12
User is offline   Di'el 

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Posted Dec 28, 2012 - 4:53 PM

Unfortunately it would be more so in BnS because of the following reasons.

- The maximum number of party members is usually 4.
If one falls short (because of gear, death or unable to fulfill role) the entire team will suffer greatly because there are very few people to cover each other's mistake.
Yes gear is also important because a lot of the bosses have time limits with barely enough time.

- The gameplay is heavily dependent on individual skill and coordinating with the rest of the team.
Most of boss(x) moveset will wipe at least 1/4 of your health bar and almost always inflict some sort of stun for at least 2 seconds. A lot of the harder ones can even wipe an entire group if not disrupted and WILL use it repeatedly. This is especially hard for the tanks since there are no healers. A lot of the moves are also AOE so everybody has to pay attention and work really hard to stay alive individually and fulfill their roles especially because of reason #1.


In the Korean servers people will distinguish between the experienced, the half-experienced, and the non-experienced players in addition to gear.
If you aren't experienced enough you would have to find "trial parties" (parties ok with wiping and trying the boss over and over again), "easy mode parties" (6-man mode), "buses" (pay an outrageous fee to join an veteran party), or play with friends/guild (recommended).



Team Bloodlust did try to address this problem with "easy mode" and "24-man field dungeons" but it could be for the better or worse.
I think for the worse because it killed a lot of the end game content (namely the "Big 4" instances) since you can just skip most of them to get to the latest dungeons.
It is extremely rare to see anybody let alone a party to go to the skipped dungeons since there is not much of an incentive other than to just kill time.
It's a shame really because they used to be really fun. And I'm saying used to because they were nerfed to the ground because no one goes there but it is still a quest requirement to beat it at least once to go the the harder dungeons.
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#13
User is offline   Mizuki 

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Posted Dec 28, 2012 - 7:06 PM

I personally like the challenges but it's going to take time to find the right group that likes to take things seriously but also likes to goof off

I found one of those guilds before in another game so hopefully I can find one again
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User is offline   Notturno 

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Posted Dec 29, 2012 - 5:05 PM

I think I am understanding your overarching message; players shouldn't be restricted by the game to complete content with their friends. While I think the message itself is fine, as in players should be able to interact with friends as they please, the mechanical implementation of such measures are the antithesis of what MMORPGs are. I agree with the sentiment, but it's completely at odds with what MMORPGs are about. What you are implying would result in the "dumbing down" of the game to appeal to a lower common denominator. Point being; lowering the bar results in the reduction in challenge and trivializes content completion, resulting in less longevity and a less engaging game.

I particularly take issue with this:

View PostMizuki, on Dec 26, 2012 - 9:04 PM, said:

If a game does it right everyone should be able to experience all the mainstream content granted you can set aside certain places for those who really want to test themselves but don't include it for everyone. If someone can't participate with their friends because they aren't "good" enough they''ll stop playing, get more and more people in that mindset and you'll start seeing mass numbers leaving.


There's nothing stopping any player in any game from experiencing the entirety of its content. MMORPGs typically have dungeons that are all able to be completed by the majority of its userbase with the proper gear tier. Failing to complete content generally boils down to three core things:

  • Insufficient Gear: Failure to acquire the necessary tier of gear needed to survive dungeon content.
  • Insufficient Knowledge: Failure to understand boss and dungeon mechanics necessary to conquer the AI.
  • Insufficient Grouping: Failure to provide the proper assortment of classes and skills, or the number of people necessary to clear the content.


The fact of the matter is this; failure to complete content in an MMORPG is the result of not investing the time to get there. There is no mechanical barrier to completing MMORPG content, the games themselves have very rudimentary mechanical demands and generally only require knowledge and time investment to clear content. There is nothing you can do to make the content "easier" that doesn't in turn reduce the time requirement, thus the longevity of the game. MMORPGs are built upon the idea of time sinks, and reducing that total time requirement irreparably damages the game's longevity, thus its subscriber base in the long term.

What you are indirectly asking for would trivialize the progression element of which the MMORPG genre is based upon. It is what I consider to be tantamount to asking for a handicap in any other game. This logic applies to any other genre. If you cannot play a shooter, the game does not provide an aimbot to compensate. If you cannot play a strategy game, the game does not provide build orders and enemy information to assist you. If you cannot play a racing game, the game does not place a limiter on top speed to make it easier on you. To reduce the time and knowledge requirement for players to clear content has a direct impact on the longevity of the game, and I would rather not see the game's difficulty reduced to allow for everyone to complete the bulk of the content without challenge.

This genre is built on achievement, on tier hierarchy, on overcoming difficulty. There's no logical reason to deviate from this; lowering the bar only makes clearing faster, removing more skilled players from the customer pool with little gains in new customers or retention. It won't happen, plain and simple.

This post has been edited by Notturno: Dec 30, 2012 - 11:33 PM

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#15
User is offline   Mizuki 

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Posted Dec 29, 2012 - 7:00 PM

One thing that needs to happen, the veteran playerbase will need to be unselfish towards new players or they'll get turned off. A lot of people use word of mouth, if their network gets told about a bad experience that will be the beginning of a wildfire
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#16
User is offline   Awake. 

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Posted Dec 30, 2012 - 3:40 AM

I'm not entirely sure what you would expect though honestly.

If you're not geared enough to run a certain dungeon/raid/instance/quest, ect, then you simply aren't geared enough. It has nothing to do with people being dicks, or elitist, or any problem with the game or the playerbase. It's just a simple fact that you lack the requirements for said event.

You can't blame other people for not wanting to have to work harder to make up for the difference, especially people who don't know you or haven't played with you at all. That's what guilds are for.
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User is offline   Zenek 

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Posted Dec 30, 2012 - 5:06 AM

View PostMizuki, on Dec 29, 2012 - 7:00 PM, said:

One thing that needs to happen, the veteran playerbase will need to be unselfish towards new players or they'll get turned off. A lot of people use word of mouth, if their network gets told about a bad experience that will be the beginning of a wildfire



Tell me... are you joke? Why someone would be not selfish? "Wanna be elitist" - that is main point of play the game. That is not players fault, they are tend to perfection.
Issue is game design - far too much based on instances (some times I think new MMO generation are not longer MMO but H&S games with lobby). If players have 5-6 slots for finish top instance - they do not want risk by take newbie. And how this instance look?

bosses with script attack sequential - impossible to predict, usually lethal. Only way to dodge it is learn to the memory whole sequence.
traps - idiotic platformer elemts, also need remeber where and how dodge it
time limits - need DPS = need items
etc.

As long as MMO will not back to oldshool - open world, players will act like this. Ofc instance based design make the new players turn off the game. It ruin the whole game community. And that is the reason why new MMO die - that is fate of every WoW clone from last 7 years. Same as every upcoming theme park...

This post has been edited by Zenek: Dec 30, 2012 - 5:06 AM

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#18
User is offline   Shinsetsu 

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Posted Dec 30, 2012 - 10:04 AM

There are several points to be made here.

1. Most MMOs are very gear dependent and players need to take responsibility to get the proper gear before attempting dungeons. There is usually a minimum you should achieve.

2. Unless the game is super new and you're one of the first people running the dungeon, there is usually a wealth of information out there for players to prepare. If its your first time in a dungeon, look up videos on YouTube or something. It really helps. And for god's sake, do not hide the fact that its your first time in the dungeon. While some jerks may kick you from the party, the majority of people are just normal players and like to know when a party member is inexperienced so they know what to expect and can plan accordingly.

3. Guild members should take responsibility for their less experienced guild mates. If a person meets the minimum gear requirement, guild members should help out new people and show them the proper way to complete the dungeon.

4. There will always be "elitist" people in MMOs. Those people won't party with you unless you have the best gear and if you mess up even a little, they will berate you like a small child. Its best to avoid those people.
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#19
User is offline   Mizuki 

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Posted Dec 30, 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostShinsetsu, on Dec 30, 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

There are several points to be made here.

1. Most MMOs are very gear dependent and players need to take responsibility to get the proper gear before attempting dungeons. There is usually a minimum you should achieve.

2. Unless the game is super new and you're one of the first people running the dungeon, there is usually a wealth of information out there for players to prepare. If its your first time in a dungeon, look up videos on YouTube or something. It really helps. And for god's sake, do not hide the fact that its your first time in the dungeon. While some jerks may kick you from the party, the majority of people are just normal players and like to know when a party member is inexperienced so they know what to expect and can plan accordingly.

3. Guild members should take responsibility for their less experienced guild mates. If a person meets the minimum gear requirement, guild members should help out new people and show them the proper way to complete the dungeon.

4. There will always be "elitist" people in MMOs. Those people won't party with you unless you have the best gear and if you mess up even a little, they will berate you like a small child. Its best to avoid those people.


Well said thanks
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#20
User is offline   Kin-Pantsu88 

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Posted Dec 30, 2012 - 2:35 PM

The proper gear and demands for the instance you wana do.

This is the oldest tug of war, many MMORPG's face. :brick:

But it speaks to itself you don't gona do a dungeon with standard grey/white gear (don't know the color ranking of B&So).
With at least some decent stuff, so you can hit hard and survive a mighty blow incase incase of a bad timing or so. :beated:

And Shinsetsu, step 2 has some pointers.
I agree with the youtube part: When I played WoW, it realy helped to know what to expect in boss fights.
How to anticipate at the fight, was sometimes way off then recomenden from the vids, but still fun and expierence.

And telling youre new to the dungeon is like a double edged blade, you can get lucky for the group doens't matter "let's take it easy"
But there are enough folks who kick you strait away. Forcing you to start searching of combining a new group. :surrender:

So it's better to tell you inexpierenced, but are informed how to play the dungeon, via youtube or friends recomandations how to.

And please don't forget to communicate, ask for tips before the fight.
Or share some in advance. Even though they are expierenced.
Like: "Don't forget to stay behind him, his flame breath hurts" or "stay in motion, stand still to long: youre dead"
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