[spencerBAXLEY]

I had a reply to everything, but screw it. We're simply going to continue beating a dead horse, so I'll simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The bottom line of what I was getting at is that balancing 1V1 doesn't translate to anything other than 1V1 scenarios (which aren't all that exist because the last time I checked it's an MMO) and dumbs down the game as a whole. 40 1V1s are not the same as 40V40; it simply doesn't scale like you're thinking that it will.

[Nique no Nihonto]

spencerBAXLEY, on Dec 14, 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I had a reply to everything, but screw it. We're simply going to continue beating a dead horse, so I'll simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The bottom line of what I was getting at is that balancing 1V1 doesn't translate to anything other than 1V1 scenarios (which aren't all that exist because the last time I checked it's an MMO) and dumbs down the game as a whole. 40 1V1s are not the same as 40V40; it simply doesn't scale like you're thinking that it will.

Please explain with details how you think it won't scale paired with how developers are restricted or limited to fix it. I'm really seriously curious.

[Taekyu]

spencerBAXLEY, on Dec 13, 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Sure, but if I wanted to duel a guildmate I'd have to drop guild, change faction, and lose my rank. Barring the fact that that's completely inefficient, it's certainly not worth it.

No you wouldn't... there are 6 or so faction doboks, I don't recall how many, but there are several lesser doboks you can use to 'duel' without changing your main faciton. I don't know how to explain this better, but you don't lose rank or anything of the sort, since it can be done with doboks that ARE NOT your main faction doboks. There are other dobok sets that are considered 'pvp' doboks.

Looks like this thread exploded, I have some reading to do >.>

Edit to add to my post:

About my original reply, I was trying my best to sum up what I thought the others were trying to say.

I haven't pvp'd in BnS as much as others so I don't really have a strong opinion about balance. My only point is that if the devs are going to implement content, there should be consideration towards balance based on that content. If there is going to be a 1v1 area, balance should be considered for 1v1s. If there is going to be a 36vs36, group balance should also be considered. But that is far out of my (or our, I'm sure) control.

About battlegrounds, I don't know that it's the direction I personally want, I would prefer a game to focus on an OWPVP system. But, if battlegrounds is what we're getting it's better than no pvp content. In that respect, I have to agree that it's a move in the right direction.

This post has been edited by Taekyu: Dec 14, 2012 - 3:16 PM

[Zenek]

Janshi, on Dec 14, 2012 - 9:20 AM, said:

I really don´t understand why you think open pvp is hurt if you try to prevent low level killing.

Because that is not longer open.

Where are you want put borders? Or completly safe zones? How are you want prevent abuse this limits?

And Aion&rifts - lowbie killing was small part of this event. Most time it was very good mass PvP with people on all possible lvl. Somehow this game died directly after remove rifts + some other idiotic changes with abbys points.

[Notturno]

I am not sure what to think about this thread, but it's somewhere between comical and depressing. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about player versus player content in MMORPGs, and this thread has left me somewhat confused on how exactly to address the topic. I'll try my best, but overall my interjection is going to be rather critical of a lot of attitudes expressed in this thread.

As a disclaimer, this is just opinion and philosophy from years of MMORPG experience. I have not played Blade & Soul and have limited knowledge on the current game systems and balance.

On Player Versus Player

I think one of the core things to remember about player versus player content is that in most mainstream MMORPGs, the content is entirely voluntary. Nobody forces you to engage in the content, and you take your own risks by deciding to participate, depending on the structure of the game. Some games have player versus player systems built purely for bragging rights, others offer exclusive gear, or something in between. Point being, usually player versus player (PVP) and player versus environment (PVE) are separate entities with their own systems that do not require crossover from players.

Now, when it comes to player versus player content, we can further divide that content into two different categories; structured PVP and unstructured PVP.

Structured PVP consists of any content with matchmaking, voluntary participation, and defined rules. Dueling, battlegrounds, or any sort of pre-arranged PVP would fall into the structured PVP category. These types of engagements usually have a "meta game" that is either stagnant or fluid depending on the competitive nature of the game; certain team compositions, item builds, skill builds, or matchup responses dictate how the PVP flows. There are often rules established, either by game systems or by mutual agreement from participants.

Unstructured PVP is often a misunderstood beast when it comes to MMORPGs. Unstructured PVP is entirely voluntary in participation, specifically in Blade & Soul, since you implicitly agree to participation by wearing a PVP dobok. Unstructured PVP favors those who are organized and roaming in groups, and is often more chaotic in nature. While some aspects of structured PVP meta game carry over into unstructured PVP, typically those who are more organized with more participants will win engagements. There are no rules, nothing stops someone from bringing ten people to kill one person.

On Unstructured Player Versus Player

There seems to be a misconception in this thread about how unstructured PVP works. There is no obligation to you or anyone for a fair fight. There is no such thing as "honor" or "justice" in unstructured PVP. It is a kill or be killed situation. You voluntarily chose to participate in the content, so you have to accept the results of your choice, whether that results in a kill or a death. To demand a fair fight or even numbers is an absurd notion in unstructured PVP, that is not how it works. There are no laws or rules that dictate what you can and cannot do in regards to a fight.

In fact, there is a particular gaming term in place for people who insist on placing their own artificial rules or limitations on themselves in PVP; a scrub. A scrub is someone who considers other players "cheap" or "dishonorable" for what they perceive to be unbalanced mechanics or unfair tactics. Someone who plays to win will abuse every game mechanic, use the strongest combination of gear and skills, and use the strongest class to make sure they have every advantage. Common complaints from scrubs include; camping, bringing more people to a PVP match, using "imbalanced" or "overpowered" weapons or classes, or abusing certain combinations of skills. Essentially, a scrub places artificial limitations on themselves based on their perception of fairness.

By stating that other people are dishonorable or bad because they use a numbers advantage in unstructured PVP, would classically be defined as scrub behavior. It is an absurd notion to demand people to play by your perceptions or rules of fairness in a voluntary PVP system. There is nothing to argue; if you die to a larger group, you lose and they win. There is nothing inherently unfair or broken about this, that is the nature of unstructured PVP. It is, in fact, called unstructured PVP because there are no rules that dictate what is allowed and not allowed. The end goal is to kill players by any means you deem necessary. If you cannot handle this reality, then there are structured PVP options to satisfy your need for something "fair." To me, it sounds like Blade & Soul have a perfectly functional unstructured PVP system.

On Balance

One last point I wanted to touch on was the idea of balance in a game. Balance is a completely subjective opinion, often resulting in perceptions unique to every single player or developer. The balance in power for any game is constantly shifting and evolving based on content updates and patches, and will never be "perfect." While one can argue and debate the nature of balance, which is a perfectly valid engagement and noble discussion worthy of attention, it is ultimately futile in the game. When you are participating in PVP, balance is a completely irrelevant factor. Your perception of balance does not change the outcome of a fight; if that person beat you using something you perceived as not balanced, then they are playing to win. To combat this, you either need to abuse the same mechanics available to you, or you theorycraft ways to counter it.

I don't believe balance will ever be perfect, and I don't believe anything is unbeatable. The meta game in every game shifts based on discovery and trial of the players. A truly skilled player is innovative and will look for these particularly strong combinations or builds, they are playing to win. Someone who spends their time complaining and not adapting is not playing to win, and will be labeled as a "scrub." It is completely worthwhile and admirable to debate the game, but I think mindless droning and complaining is a worthless endeavor and ultimately childish in nature. The point I am trying to establish is that balance is subjective and not subject to your particular opinion on how things should be changed. You either adapt or lose, it's as simple as that.

My Conclusion

I don't think Blade & Soul's PVP systems are imbalanced or broken, I think they are working as intended. I think a big part of what influences opinions on PVP balance are player biases and perceptions of what is fair.

[Janshi]

Zenek, on Dec 14, 2012 - 2:48 PM, said:

Because that is not longer open.

Where are you want put borders? Or completly safe zones? How are you want prevent abuse this limits?

And Aion&rifts - lowbie killing was small part of this event. Most time it was very good mass PvP with people on all possible lvl. Somehow this game died directly after remove rifts + some other idiotic changes with abbys points.

That´s a matter of opinion. In the end for bns thats nothing we have concern about imo, I really doubt they gonna change something in the open pvp in this game.
Though i have to correct myself, you can have nice battles in the pvp camps if you find ppl who really want to fight and not running home like crybabys and bring back a whole zerg. Yesterday i fought with my summoner partner against two koreans for almost 1 hour in the last pvp camp, no one other interrupted. That was really fun and challenging.

[Nique no Nihonto]

Notturno, on Dec 14, 2012 - 5:50 PM, said:

I am not sure what to think about this thread, but it's somewhere between comical and depressing. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about player versus player content in MMORPGs, and this thread has left me somewhat confused on how exactly to address the topic. I'll try my best, but overall my interjection is going to be rather critical of a lot of attitudes expressed in this thread.

As a disclaimer, this is just opinion and philosophy from years of MMORPG experience. I have not played Blade & Soul and have limited knowledge on the current game systems and balance.

On Player Versus Player

I think one of the core things to remember about player versus player content is that in most mainstream MMORPGs, the content is entirely voluntary. Nobody forces you to engage in the content, and you take your own risks by deciding to participate, depending on the structure of the game. Some games have player versus player systems built purely for bragging rights, others offer exclusive gear, or something in between. Point being, usually player versus player (PVP) and player versus environment (PVE) are separate entities with their own systems that do not require crossover from players.

Now, when it comes to player versus player content, we can further divide that content into two different categories; structured PVP and unstructured PVP.

Structured PVP consists of any content with matchmaking, voluntary participation, and defined rules. Dueling, battlegrounds, or any sort of pre-arranged PVP would fall into the structured PVP category. These types of engagements usually have a "meta game" that is either stagnant or fluid depending on the competitive nature of the game; certain team compositions, item builds, skill builds, or matchup responses dictate how the PVP flows. There are often rules established, either by game systems or by mutual agreement from participants.

Unstructured PVP is often a misunderstood beast when it comes to MMORPGs. Unstructured PVP is entirely voluntary in participation, specifically in Blade & Soul, since you implicitly agree to participation by wearing a PVP dobok. Unstructured PVP favors those who are organized and roaming in groups, and is often more chaotic in nature. While some aspects of structured PVP meta game carry over into unstructured PVP, typically those who are more organized with more participants will win engagements. There are no rules, nothing stops someone from bringing ten people to kill one person.

On Unstructured Player Versus Player

There seems to be a misconception in this thread about how unstructured PVP works. There is no obligation to you or anyone for a fair fight. There is no such thing as "honor" or "justice" in unstructured PVP. It is a kill or be killed situation. You voluntarily chose to participate in the content, so you have to accept the results of your choice, whether that results in a kill or a death. To demand a fair fight or even numbers is an absurd notion in unstructured PVP, that is not how it works. There are no laws or rules that dictate what you can and cannot do in regards to a fight.

In fact, there is a particular gaming term in place for people who insist on placing their own artificial rules or limitations on themselves in PVP; a scrub. A scrub is someone who considers other players "cheap" or "dishonorable" for what they perceive to be unbalanced mechanics or unfair tactics. Someone who plays to win will abuse every game mechanic, use the strongest combination of gear and skills, and use the strongest class to make sure they have every advantage. Common complaints from scrubs include; camping, bringing more people to a PVP match, using "imbalanced" or "overpowered" weapons or classes, or abusing certain combinations of skills. Essentially, a scrub places artificial limitations on themselves based on their perception of fairness.

By stating that other people are dishonorable or bad because they use a numbers advantage in unstructured PVP, would classically be defined as scrub behavior. It is an absurd notion to demand people to play by your perceptions or rules of fairness in a voluntary PVP system. There is nothing to argue; if you die to a larger group, you lose and they win. There is nothing inherently unfair or broken about this, that is the nature of unstructured PVP. It is, in fact, called unstructured PVP because there are no rules that dictate what is allowed and not allowed. The end goal is to kill players by any means you deem necessary. If you cannot handle this reality, then there are structured PVP options to satisfy your need for something "fair." To me, it sounds like Blade & Soul have a perfectly functional unstructured PVP system.

On Balance

One last point I wanted to touch on was the idea of balance in a game. Balance is a completely subjective opinion, often resulting in perceptions unique to every single player or developer. The balance in power for any game is constantly shifting and evolving based on content updates and patches, and will never be "perfect." While one can argue and debate the nature of balance, which is a perfectly valid engagement and noble discussion worthy of attention, it is ultimately futile in the game. When you are participating in PVP, balance is a completely irrelevant factor. Your perception of balance does not change the outcome of a fight; if that person beat you using something you perceived as not balanced, then they are playing to win. To combat this, you either need to abuse the same mechanics available to you, or you theorycraft ways to counter it.

I don't believe balance will ever be perfect, and I don't believe anything is unbeatable. The meta game in every game shifts based on discovery and trial of the players. A truly skilled player is innovative and will look for these particularly strong combinations or builds, they are playing to win. Someone who spends their time complaining and not adapting is not playing to win, and will be labeled as a "scrub." It is completely worthwhile and admirable to debate the game, but I think mindless droning and complaining is a worthless endeavor and ultimately childish in nature. The point I am trying to establish is that balance is subjective and not subject to your particular opinion on how things should be changed. You either adapt or lose, it's as simple as that.

My Conclusion

I don't think Blade & Soul's PVP systems are imbalanced or broken, I think they are working as intended. I think a big part of what influences opinions on PVP balance are player biases and perceptions of what is fair.

Eloquent but reads like an online WIKI encyclopedia. These things you state are already known. For example, this comparison between structured and unstructured PvP is obvious. However, this discussion, is not about the current perception you have of the limits of MMO design and people should just accept what's fed to them. Games get better through player feedback. It doesn't matter If they are legit or not, over-emotional or not. They pay the developers to listen and sift through these ideas. You think they don't value our ideas? We are the customers! They work for us. Ever heard of beta testers? Another good example are the add-ons of WOW. players created what was lacking in the game. Some got as popular as the game itself. WOW had to bake it in the game in patched and expansions. Examples are threat meters, item levels, flashing icons for skill and spell procs. The point is, it's counter productive to discourage these discussions.

In conclusion, in PvP or pve in an MMO anything is possible. Its up to the developers to create it to please the player base. Nobody is going to enjoy playing the game no matter how the game suits them and not others. The only thing to focus on in balancing this game is single and AE damage, CC's, gap closers, and survival skills. They are all skills owned by the player. Other games were hard to balance because of skills borne of other players cast on you among other things.

[Notturno]

Nique no Nihonto, on Dec 15, 2012 - 2:48 PM, said:

Eloquent but reads like an online WIKI encyclopedia. These things you state are already known. For example, this comparison between structured and unstructured PvP is obvious. However, this discussion, is not about the current perception you have of the limits of MMO design and people should just accept what's fed to them. Games get better through player feedback. It doesn't matter If they are legit or not, over-emotional or not. They pay the developers to listen and sift through these ideas. You think they don't value our ideas? We are the customers! They work for us. Ever heard of beta testers? Another good example are the add-ons of WOW. players created what was lacking in the game. Some got as popular as the game itself. WOW had to bake it in the game in patched and expansions. Examples are threat meters, item levels, flashing icons for skill and spell procs. The point is, it's counter productive to discourage these discussions.

In conclusion, in PvP or pve in an MMO anything is possible. Its up to the developers to create it to please the player base. Nobody is going to enjoy playing the game no matter how the game suits them and not others. The only thing to focus on in balancing this game is single and AE damage, CC's, gap closers, and survival skills. They are all skills owned by the player. Other games were hard to balance because of skills borne of other players cast on you among other things.

I appreciate the first statement made, I'll take that as a compliment. :P

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this post, but I'm going to assume you're generally discussing the importance of player feedback in making a good balance of PVP systems. Yeah, I can get behind that, and I'm not arguing against feedback. I've alpha and beta tested a few major titles in the past ten years or so, and I absolutely believe players can provide valuable insight that alters the direction of a game in a positive way. This is not really a debatable point, it's just fact that feedback will ultimately produce a better game when properly utilized.

What I don't agree with is listening to people who complain, instead of present quality feedback and insight. There are some attitudes expressed in this thread that discourage the very nature of unstructured PVP; it is not meant to be "fair" or "balanced" because someone wants to run around by themselves and kill everyone in sight. Unstructured PVP has always favored larger coordinated groups, that's why it's called unstructured; you have no rules dictating the size of "teams." You can't just add rules to unstructured PVP; oh, since people are crying about dying by themselves, we're going to make it so only one person can attack you in unstructured world PVP. That completely defeats the purpose of it, and will ultimately kill the enjoyable aspects of it.

The same logic applies to balance feedback; just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean it's ultimately meaningful or best for the game. Oftentimes people will lose to a certain combination or class, then automatically declare it "overpowered" or "imbalanced." Instead of trying the class out or trying to find ways to counter what they just lost to, they will immediately jump on the complaint bandwagon and incessantly whine until something happens. This results in less counter play and innovation, and more developer intervention that fundamentally alters the state of the game's balance. This happens in plenty of games, particularly MOBAs and MMORPGs.

The customer is not always right. I think healthy debate and discussion on updates is great for the community, and I think it also opens up opportunities for people to discover counter play and theorycraft. However, I think a lot of debate becomes destructive quite quickly due to the nature of people wanting their style of play to be "the best." I don't want unstructured PVP gutted because someone cannot fathom that groups perform better in those environments. Nor do I want particular classes or skills nerfed into the ground because people are unwilling to deviate from their particular style of play. I'd rather see a game that encourages counter play and player engagement, not a game that is constantly in flux because of swaying community opinion.

[ZenkcooL]

OWPVP is one that makes me addicted to a games, u feelin like shit when get gangin, then train more and more to fight back

[Kryscent]

^ Exactly what I'll do, lol.

[jokerstar]

here's a good example of BnS pvp



The brave blademaster got held by a lyn blademaster into the waiting meat grinder :(

This was the red faction pvp base.... except every red npc/player were all dead.

This post has been edited by jokerstar: Dec 22, 2012 - 4:27 AM

[KTcraft]

@Notturno. Well said-in regards to all previous posts on this thread- I wholeheartedly agree.

I feel what may be very important to a game that is as skill based as BnS is a player developed metagame and not one forced by the devs as a result of incessant and numerous player complaints(Ahem... Warcraft anyone?).

If you look at a fighting game like Smash Bros Melee or Soul Cal, the tier listing for the characters(relative strength rating for character matchups) is always changing and that is simply due to the evolving metagame. Fighting games don't get patched either-beyond simple hotfixes- balance is ALL in the player's hands, a strong tactic today doesn't work well tomorrow.

I recall a certain forum poll regarding the PvP system in BnS, about whether people like the system or not. A good majority of the voters felt that the system was good because it let them choose when to and when not to pvp-if they felt like pvping, they could equip their dobok, and if not, they could just run around "unflagged" until they saw a fight that looked "interesting".
Is it perhaps possible that these "gank squads" you are seeing are simply these PvP opportunists? The people that equip their Dobok only when they see a "fun fight"?
I find it very likely.

In the end though, like Notturno said, there is no rules regarding numbers or strategy in OWPvP except those constraints placed in the game.

This post has been edited by KTcraft: Dec 22, 2012 - 5:53 AM

[Zenek]

KTcraft, on Dec 22, 2012 - 5:51 AM, said:

I recall a certain forum poll regarding the PvP system in BnS, about whether people like the system or not. A good majority of the voters felt that the system was good because it let them choose when to and when not to pvp-if they felt like pvping, they could equip their dobok, and if not, they could just run around "unflagged" until they saw a fight that looked "interesting".
Is it perhaps possible that these "gank squads" you are seeing are simply these PvP opportunists? The people that equip their Dobok only when they see a "fun fight"?
I find it very likely.

People talk what they want, what the expect but they are not able/do not even want to predict effects what they want. Dobok systemw that you say... it is very bad system in the long run. All votes what this system got is from:
PvE players - players who are not even interest in to PvP.
Carebears & casuals - who are do not have guts for a bit more complicated game, even if they have to play a boring game.
Players from WoW, WoW-clones and other BG based games - this ppl simply can not understand a beauty of OWPvP.

But this system going to make alot of mess in OWPvP. For ppl what will want PvP it means they can be ganked, but they can not even revenge - because of "the people that equip their Dobok only when they see a fun fight". In longer run ppl who do want OWPvP will simply leave the game because of nonsenses what it bring. And "the people that equip their Dobok only when they see a fun fight" will simply not have ocasion - because lack of ppl who rly want PvP and create OWPvP and policy on server.

Look at EVE - there is no system what disrupts OWPvP and game is healthy from 7 years. Look at L2 what did it - game is dead. Look at WoW what did it - game do not have OWPvP.

This votes are not from PvP-ers, but ppl who vote against PvP in game.

This post has been edited by Zenek: Dec 22, 2012 - 7:08 AM

[Janshi]

@jokerstar

The funny thing is that often it looks exactly the same in the blue base on a different channel. Most koreans have no courage to fight on a fair basis. During primetime open pvp is mostly a big zergfest.
And Doboko-PvP-System is shit like Zenek said, nothing to add here.

This post has been edited by Janshi: Dec 22, 2012 - 8:04 AM

[Ryochan]

Lol, IIRC from my experience in Aion's OWPVP it was horrid. People would only engage in pvp if they were with a group, or at least with a priest. If I go into the asmodian's zone to try and kill one of them, they'd be able to keep running until A. They are near there castle in which the guardian npcs destroy you, or 2, PM a buddy or the rest of his friends to outnumber you. It was always annoying, and just became plain boring. When Aion first came out I enjoyed the OWPVP until people 1.7 or w/e, when people just started making archers stacked with +10 pvp gear in low lvl zones, just to gank and grief newcomers, and other low lvl people in PVE. Was boring and stupid for me, and that actually made a lot of new people quit. At least in B&S's PVP, if you have a PVP Dobok on, you have the option to be in that same situation for OWPVP. And it relies a bit more on skill than just plain gear.

[Zenek]

Honestly I do not know even one person what quit a game because get ganked by hight lvl. But I know whole clans what quite games because developers started restrict OWPvP. IMO whole issues is much overly cried. As long as it is issue, that is not reason for kill OWPvP - main activity for large part of players. And dobok system, in current form is nonsense for anyone who want true OWPvP.

[jokerstar]

alright guys i got another story in the world of BnS pvp

so basically I was going to do my pvp dailies, which involve going to pvp camps and doing some quests. So I put on my pvp dobok which lets me tele right to our camp. The place where you spawn is SUPPOSED to be unreachable by the enemy faction. Guess what, I spawned on our platform, and there was 5 destroyers/lbm's of the enemy faction just WAITING THERE. One lbm dragged me and dropped me right down into the waiting zerg of 20 of the other faction and I died. The stupidest part of this story is that YOU HAVE TO RESPAWN AT THE FACTION CAMP SPAWN POINT, and thats being camped. You have no way of removing the PvP dobok and cant change channel. All I could do was log out and just wait for a while until they stopped camping the spawn point.

/end rant


tl;dr : PvP in this game is fucking disgusting

[Janshi]

You can remove your pvp doboko while releasing; just use option 3 when downed. This let u respawn in the nearest non pvp camp nacked. Problem is that all your pvp dailies are resetted if you finished some.

I assume you´re doing your pvp dailies during primetime in korea, thats quite normal that the factions are camping the spawnpoints.

[Zenek]

jokerstar, on Dec 24, 2012 - 4:21 AM, said:

alright guys i got another story in the world of BnS pvp
...

So... the moral from this story is - do not travel alone.

But If game do realy not allow to respawn in other town (for example very first village), I have to agree - that is a bit odd. From other hand that is good to know PvP in this game sometimes can be a bit harsh and mistake can cost more than just single death.

[Aari]

Zenek, on Dec 24, 2012 - 5:38 PM, said:

So... the moral from this story is - do not travel alone.

But If game do realy not allow to respawn in other town (for example very first village), I have to agree - that is a bit odd. From other hand that is good to know PvP in this game sometimes can be a bit harsh and mistake can cost more than just single death.

It does, as Janshi said, he just didnt use his Number 3 Skill while he was dead.