Blade & Soul Dojo: Without the trinity system, I wonder how players will respond - Blade & Soul Dojo

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Without the trinity system, I wonder how players will respond tank healer dps makes up the trinity system Rate Topic: -----

#1
User is offline   Mizuki 

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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 11:03 AM

Lots of players in MMOs that I've played always bitch at the healer or tank when they die, they always look at someone to blame. Well with Blade and Soul players are given the tools they need for survivability and if they don't make use of them die and it's their own fault, from what I understand anyway.

In a way it's nice, well for me personally because it has a chance of making the game be more fun because I've gone through plenty of experiences where I was in a raid as a healer and died and get yelled at over chat that it's my fault the raid failed which totally made me feel like shit and I stopped playing. Due to that mentality MMO's felt more like work than playing a game and it totally sucked which ultimately led to my unsubbing from a majority of them.

The more I learn about this game the more I hope it's a success because it seems to be doing what has made other MMOs fail before

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User is offline   Yami Akuma 

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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 11:59 AM

Yea, so many times in WoW ( back when i played it ) when i was tanking/healing .. and someone died and they just go into rage mode and starts with "omg noob healer/tank etc )
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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 12:13 PM

This is not entirely correct.
There are times when certain classes have to put up some sort of 'protection field' to keep the party from getting their butts handed to them.

Also, you'll still have someone in your team that will tank the bosses.
It's not like every class can support the team or tank.
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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 2:40 PM

View PostHakkai, on Nov 27, 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

This is not entirely correct.
There are times when certain classes have to put up some sort of 'protection field' to keep the party from getting their butts handed to them.

Also, you'll still have someone in your team that will tank the bosses.
It's not like every class can support the team or tank.

the force master *protection field* you are talking about it just to protect the group from ranged attacks for a limited time, its useful if you don't feel the need to scatter like rats in a flood with certain bosses fly away/hang on a wall/or are otherwise out of your attack range then start spitting/throwing stuff/etc at your group from the safety of being out of your attack range. it should be know that blade & soul DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE HEALING CLASS, no class can heal another player, only healing you are going to get during combat is potions and HP leech skill and slotted gems on your weapon. lyn summoners can heal themselves and their pet with various skills but that for personal use. so in blade & soul, you are responsible for your own butt and no one is carrying you around like extra baggage like in other trinity mmos, where the healer or tank can carry a windowlicker group who have no clue what they are doing or what's going on. not to say that all boss encounters are do or die, there is plenty of breathing room but on a whole, you actually have to active try to survive instead of standing around and hoping you get a heal from the healer, which doesn't exist in blade & soul.

*tanking* is a relative term in blade & soul, no class has any aggro/threat increasing skill like taunt or threaten etc, its purely dps aggro, so whomever does the most dps is usually the one the boss is attacking and if you pay attention to most game play videos so far, the *tank* is usually a jin/kun blademaster as far as most of the videos i have seen. destroyers can tank too but they don't actually do much attacking, all i see destroyers doing in mostly choking the bosses and letting the everyone take free shots then the blademaster continues to hold aggro until the destroyer can choke the boss again..repeat..if you can call that tanking, i guess that's it, never seen a destroyer stand there and *tank*. i could be wrong and i could be missing the destroyer tanking videos but im just saying what i see. lastly, if you watch any of the bosses/raid videos, tanking is kind of an odd dps race type deal since everything is essentially dps and if everyone works together with the knowdown/stun/aerial tag team system, bosses can be easily controlled and beaten to death quite easily with a decent group as far as i can see in many videos i have seen. so i would say the old trinity of tank, healer, dps is a relic of the mmo world, welcome to the present ^_^
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User is offline   Janshi 

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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 2:58 PM

There is rarely classical tanking in BnS. Powahran 4/6 was / is (?) mainly "tanked" (acutally kited) by a forcmaster. Though of course blades are a perfect designed class for tanking but many bosses can be "tanked" nearly everyone if she/he is decent specced / equiped and able to play his class well.
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Posted Nov 27, 2012 - 3:03 PM

So negative Hakkai! :D Go farm badges for my lyn!
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Posted Nov 28, 2012 - 12:56 AM

Reality sinks in: People will complain about other people regardless and they will fight over who's "better geared" or "more skilled" just the same as always.
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#8
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Posted Nov 28, 2012 - 1:20 AM

The Duality will still be there.
The Blade Master or Kung Fu Master will Tank
Everybody else will damage it up.
Force Masters must always have the shield skill and keep it up at all times.

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User is offline   Kogane 

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Posted Nov 28, 2012 - 1:34 PM

There isn't a trinity system in BnS---but that does not mean that every person in the party does not hold their own importance. A person whom is well versed in what the other class is capable of as well as their own can form plans that would make an otherwise hellish instance easier to manage just by understanding the various skills everyone has.

As a result the same kind of frustration can occur---but it'd be more justified. Imagine being that person who is skilled and thus can think of a good plan that can help everyone---but the person you're requiring the help of is inexperienced, and on top of that too stubborn to try out your plan. This of course gives you about as much right to make them feel like trash as that have to you---but you need to understand where frustration can come from and why it appears.

People tend to vent---some do it to the point where they don't realize what they're saying and don't even mean it.

This isn't to say that there aren't billions of people whom do realize it and just say it because they have their anonymity to protect them...but it's always good to look both ways before you cross a street. n n

While I do think this trinity system will increase an awareness about personal skill---I don't think these frustrations will disappear. Rather they'll just take a different form and possibly even give rise to even more elitism.

That said---I think it's more important to focus on educating where you can and trying to work with what you have in a party. It takes a decent head to assist with the synergy of a party or raid group.

Especially when they're 'pub-parties'..
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#10
User is offline   Lyndis 

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Posted Nov 28, 2012 - 7:40 PM

View PostShinaji, on Nov 28, 2012 - 1:20 AM, said:

The Duality will still be there.
The Blade Master or Kung Fu Master will Tank
Everybody else will damage it up.
Force Masters must always have the shield skill and keep it up at all times.



Which really stinks when you think about it for Force Masters. Its basically REQUIRED that you must have that skill thus eliminating points to be used for other build styles. Whenever a game requires you to MUST have certain skills to be successful I think its time to go back to the drawing board.
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User is offline   kennywu54 

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Posted Nov 29, 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostLyndis, on Nov 28, 2012 - 7:40 PM, said:

Which really stinks when you think about it for Force Masters. Its basically REQUIRED that you must have that skill thus eliminating points to be used for other build styles. Whenever a game requires you to MUST have certain skills to be successful I think its time to go back to the drawing board.



I wanted to say something about skill points and roles in this game. I have never played a MMORPG where there wasn't an optimal pve/pvp skill tree set up. From WOW to Aion to Diablo to BnS there are so many people playing and stat crunching that someone always figures out the best skill tree to use. I know people want to pick what skills they want to use and have personalized abilities/skills. But there are a skills that one needs to take in order to benefit themselves and the party during dungeons or pvp. I play with my SO and she's a FM. She has never taken the 'shield' talent. Other classes have similar skills such as the summoner's dust or the assassin's smoke bomb. Nevertheless, you will have to use skill points for some abilities but BnS ensures for dungeon mechanics multiple characters can bring needed abilities.

The previous posts were right about no healers in this game. Everyone is personally responsible for keeping their health up and not standing in fire.

For tanks...bosses focus on whomever is outputting the most damage. In other MMOs I've played tanks have high HP and defensive cool downs and stats. In BnS that is not the case for the tanks want to focus on high crit rate/% and damage stats in order to keep the boss's attention. ALL classes can tank, but some are better suited than others for certain bosses. Let me explain: Kung-Fu Masters and Blade Masters IMO are best suited to tank because they can counter/parry and block, respectively. Summoners can tank with their cats and root. I've seen Assassins evading all attacks while tanking. Force Masters can kite and freeze. Destroyers and Blade Masters have complete avoidance skills and their spins increase their defense immensely. A cool think about BnS is that bosses will change abilities depending on how they are tanked. For example, the girl with the Gatling gun (last boss in one of the endgame dungeons) will do melee ranged moves if tanked by a melee class or shoot grenades at a ranged class if tanked by a ranged player.
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#12
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Posted Nov 29, 2012 - 1:24 AM

View PostLyndis, on Nov 28, 2012 - 7:40 PM, said:

Which really stinks when you think about it for Force Masters. Its basically REQUIRED that you must have that skill thus eliminating points to be used for other build styles. Whenever a game requires you to MUST have certain skills to be successful I think its time to go back to the drawing board.



FMs don't need to use the point for the skill. they can just bring an assassin together, assassins get that projectile immunity skill for free, no skill point needed.
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#13
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Posted Nov 30, 2012 - 1:30 PM

I think, much alike in GW2, this game will be the worst received by classic healers role wise as it's just not there, yet to can still tank to an extent. I don't think the trinity system is evil inherently; human nature is. I actually like that, while having a distinct personality, a part of that is dictated by my chosen role. That's kind of why I'm not completely 'for' a no holds barred anyone can do everything system. I lose a sense of self in a way, this was certainly the impression GW2 left behind on me and the reason that, unlike in any other MMO I've ever played, I actually went on a frustrating class hopping stint to little effect. I ended up on the necromancer simply because it had the durability I required yet unfortunately for me... it's a sodding caster obviously, melee weapons or not it IS in cloth. Hence why I'm gradually losing interest in the game over that. I don't really have my niché. I don't feel 'right' as any of the classes in that game.

The weird thing is, while I say I dislike a case where anyone can be anything more or less within a spectrum that lacks any kind of stone set roles; I find I insistently carve a path of self sufficiency within holy trinity laden games. Sort of a double standard paradox I've got on my hands. I tend to play a tank in such a way that I can go on for quite a while when shit hits the fan, without a need to rely on anyone else. I know I've shot my share of sharp acidic glares when I 'expected' a healer to cut in and I was met with pure incompetence instead, the thought that would often cross my mind was "Damn, you hardly need to work to keep me up and I'm making this such a smooth experience... why fall at such a short hurdle dude? It's not that hard surely... isn't it?" I had to play a healer during one of my MMO experiences just to make sure I wasn't just a misunderstanding of what the healer is capable and not capable of doing... and I was disgusted understandably; it really wasn't that hard and I felt stupid for giving those people the benefit of the doubt from then on lol.

Honestly though, within the right company, a trinity system works the field. It just does, in my books anyway. In a game lacking such boundaries... such as GW2... "What are you?" "Oh I'm control!" *a fight goes on* *I don't recognize anything that I could call CC going on* *I question the fellow* "Well if I use X skill, well, isn't that kind of control?" *le sigh* I get that from support labelled people as well. Well, what I saw from that is people really can't escape the shadow of a class based system, even if it a vague shell of the former in the shape of self-imposed roles; and yet... they do so within a scheme that tries to break away from such shackles. So, why not just give back what the people want and inject boundaries within the classes themselves again? o.O I know it'd make it a lot less agitating for me as I genuinely don't know who to look out for in the fray that will do something specific to help aid my own cause. I just think it would make the experience all the more fluid again, and the rage? Well just be as the duck and let the watery rage roll down your back; they're only empty insults right?

In B&S, well... it seems that across the full house, a couple of classes do X better than every other one while a couple more do Y better than most everything else even if it isn't as extreme as in other MMOs. It's not so much a case of 'style' such as damage output style like in GW2 which has me breathe a sigh of relief; y'know... there are classes that are just plain better at damage dealing. Even though there is still some of it there, don't get me wrong... but that's just the basic stuff like AoE vs DD that you find commonly pretty much everywhere.

Actually y'know what? I'm going to stop talking and return to my original analysis. The only group of people that will be losing out are out and out healer players. They will just have to settle for soft support classes. There are tanks still in after all, just not extreme tanks - but certainly more of a tank than any of the classes in GW2 can be.
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#14
User is offline   Kogane 

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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostKerberian Kitsune, on Nov 30, 2012 - 1:30 PM, said:



Looking from your persepctive, also as one whom commonly plays a healer & understands the trials and tribulations of such, I can easily vouch that the trinity system works. A good party on both a mental and 'physical' stand point is one that will not easily fail. (And when they do fail they improve upon their flaws) The system works, it's fun, and it provides a silent understanding of what needs to be done, what kind of person you may be dealing with for each class, how you must gear yourself, and other important in-game and off-game things that such roles can tip the understanding mind...

However my differing opinion is as such:

I feel that a game where there is no trinity is one that forces players to commit to team work in a different way.

All the things you could need in a team are still very much present---and your assumed role in a team is a little more present to me than just vague.

I'll explain from experience:

On the private server not many people enjoy hearing about I took to creating a character that was a KFM. A friend of mine whom rarely played mage classes decided she'd pick up the Lyn...and thus we went about playing the areas that were available to us. For a while it was pretty odd...we attempted to support each other in battle but for the most part dealing with casual mobs ended in us just pretty much wildly beating on whatever came up together and moving on with no sense of need for the other---aside from making quests go faster. This eventually lead to us pretty much soloing without consideration of the other while keeping each other updated on levels because after a while (due to how shoddy the quest system was in CB2) wound up getting competitive for drops. Lol Due to her being a stronger caster class than my KFM she'd usually 'win' which left me out of drops I needed. (Constant resetting of instances followed)

Anyway....as we progressed keeping each other updated finally we reached a place neither of us could really beat without some kind of help. So we decided 'Okay finally we can act like a party'....Needless to say this was not so successful. Neither of us knew how we could help the other so we settled for just keeping mobs off of each o ther and wailing on whatever skittered up to us.

That...didn't work.

That was when I got the bright idea to try planning around our skill sets. I'd played her class a little--and knew some of the extent of her ability. We talked over what our respective abilities were capable of---and tried over and over again learning as we went. Until finally we actually had a decent party-based system constructed from what we knew about each other and what skills were good for doing what.

My mage friend wound up using her ice attacks to freeze mobs as they rushed over to me while I ran in to draw them toward me and hit them with the AOE-like slash danage I was capable of with one of my skills. She'd attempt a kind of 'light CC' while I dealed damage to make sure the mobs with low hp would die quickly--and those coming at us would be struck by damage as soon as they come.

That said....I feel this lack of trinity system isn't exactly designed to 'break away' from the common player though---so much as force the player to go ahead and think with this thought but be prepared to think outside of the box. Rather than be held down to a specific role---this game provides the chance for a player to 'Do whatever works and is best for the party at the time' as opposed to 'This is all you can do. This is all you are good for.'

...I feel this allows us to not depend on one character specifically for salvation when things go awry----but allows us to place our 'hopes' in whomever's alive and whomever has an 'idea'.

To me....as a result it's not so much as a 'break away' from the traditional as a realistic wake-up call to what battle can be like as a martial artist fighting a group of monsters. We all have our specialties---but in the end we are individual. Our skills lie not only in skill points and in-game abilities....but our ability and power to think and consider possibilities when we're playing with others.

In the case of my experience...My specialty 'tactics and management' came from years of playing as a healer and having a chance to sit in the back and watch the progress of battle---watching hp as it dwindles and reacting upon it. Coming up with battle plans as I watched my friends do what they can---and suggesting ideas when I learned of how their classes functioned when they failed. My will to succeed and think for the sake of my party mates would never have been this strong if I had never played a healer class before---and as a result my desire to assist still carries on even though I'm playing a class that by all rights could be a tank if it wanted to be.

That said---even though the healer class isn't there for me to play, I can't sit back and watch over my team mates in the way I am most used to, I can still very well watch over them and protect them.

It's just now I don't do it with a healing hand---but with my fists. Not with the intent to tank, not with the intent to DPS, but with the intent to ensure that as long as I am 'alive' no one will suffer unnecessary damage, and they can always feel they have someone watching their back.

It's not a healer--but It feels right.

Sorry if I sound like I'm missing the point though...I did kind of hope to convey to you how it may be different and how it could excel in the party scene. (My typing for this post too. It looks horrendous.)
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User is offline   DayBreeze 

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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 2:20 PM

View PostKogane, on Dec 03, 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Lol Due to her being a stronger caster class than my KFM she'd usually 'win' which left me out of drops I needed. (Constant resetting of instances followed)


there is no competing of DPS in blade and soul. its whoever hits first gets drops. this rule extends over to parties as well, whichever party hits first. both on official and private server.
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User is offline   Kogane 

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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 2:22 PM

View PostDayBreeze, on Dec 03, 2012 - 2:20 PM, said:

there is no competing of DPS in blade and soul. its whoever hits first gets drops. this rule extends over to parties as well, whichever party hits first. both on official and private server.


Either way we were competing for drops. I do apologize for the mistake, however as I did actually know that.

I just wasn't thinking too much about that mechanic since that wasn't the point of my post. : P
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User is offline   SaibotMK 

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Posted Dec 03, 2012 - 5:40 PM

Yea the only time a rogue should die in wow pve for example is if it is a unaviodable death because you did not follow the rules of the boss like standing in a instent death area instead of where your suppose to stand.

In B&S, I love how much skill plays a % in PvP,

Arena is the best showcase of sklll in WoW, good CC rotation between both partners and communication, while you can lose because of gear for sure, it would take more so if both players are good in arena. As you can be the best 1v1 rogue on your server but if you do not know how arena works you will not be the best rogue on your mmr.

I am hoping that there is nothing similar to resilience like there is in WoW, the best PvP days of WoW was vanilla my opinion. As a mage or rogue for example if you did not know what you were doing you could get 2 or 3 shotted in a hurry. I liked old school UO T2A PvP (first mmo) where you had no armor as a mage, you ran around naked basically. PvP should be twitch base skill & execution (like a fighitng game) with a keyboard. if you make a mistake it should nearly if not entirely cost you the fight, my opinion.

This post has been edited by SaibotMK: Dec 03, 2012 - 5:52 PM

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